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#105252 - 01/09/06 02:15 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
dmg GRAND Pooh-Bah Registered: 10/27/03 Posts: 2169 Loc: Bearing Strait Ice/Land Bridge	Who's doing that? We were comparing Subutex, but not Suboxone, and still, even at that, we were saying that there are major differences between the two...so what's the deal?
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#105253 - 01/09/06 02:36 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
SandyFeet GRAND Pooh-Bah Registered: 03/20/04 Posts: 1477 Loc: By the ocean	Leon, what is the difference between the three drugs, Temgesic, Subutex, and Suboxone, other than potency and Suboxone has naloxone. This is my confusion. Aren’t they all buprenorphine? Is Temgesic a more potent form buprenorphine which explains the lower dosage? Thanks for the response anyone! _________________________ I'd rather stay here with all the madmen Than perish with the sadmen roaming free David Bowie
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#105254 - 01/09/06 03:07 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
SandyFeet GRAND Pooh-Bah Registered: 03/20/04 Posts: 1477 Loc: By the ocean	Okay, I am going to risk talking to myself and answer my own question. The only difference between the three drugs (besides naloxone in Suboxone) is potency. The lower dose is marketed as Temgesic and the larger doses as Subutex. If you can show me any information to the contrary, leon, I would love to see it. _________________________ I'd rather stay here with all the madmen Than perish with the sadmen roaming free David Bowie
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#105255 - 01/09/06 03:39 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
paullblack Stranger Registered: 01/05/06 Posts: 19	Bupe is Buprenorphine is Temgesic is Buprenex (injectable form .3mg) is subutex! Even Suboxone is buprenorphine with a 45 minute active ingredient (Naloxone,full antagonist as Narcan). Naloxone (pure antagonist) is only active for the first 45 minutes ( to keep people from injecting it), otherwise suboxone is pure bupe also! The main problem most people don't realize it is because they take too much of subutex and suboxone. "Less is Best" when it comes to any form of Buprenorphine. If you go to an addictionologist they will most likely start you on subutex (doesn't have the naloxone). Although most pharmacologists, psychologists, and addictionologist will most likely tell you that the Naloxone in Suboxone is inert and will only effect you differently than pure buprenorphine is if you inject it. Well, those that have run this gamut know these doctors also know this is pure propaganda. Take 2mg of suboxone only 12 hours since your last dose of opiate. you'll be sicker than you'd ever thought possible. On the otherhand after taking your last hit 400mg of oxycontin wait 8 hours and take a temgesic or buprenex or subutex and it will be a much more pleasant experience. But, the key is, only take a minute amount! Don't take that whole 2mg (or, even worse that full 8mg suboxone)which the doctor just prescribed you and advised you to take it 12 hours after your last dose of a full agonist!!!!! 1/4 of a 2mg subutex or a couple .2mg Temgesics is all you will need. Remember, less is the only way to take any form of buprenorphine... As long as you take a very small amount of anykind of bupe (although, I wouldn't reccommend taking suboxone within 18 hours after your last dose of a full opiate) you can take any full agonist within a few hours without ANY ill effects. The worst thing that will happen is that your full agonist probably won't work as well due to the MU receptors being taken over by the antagonist portion of the combination agonist/antagonist of buprenorphine. Although morphine will knock the antagonists off the mu~ completely if a large enough dose is taken. Edited by paullblack (01/09/06 03:56 PM)
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#105256 - 01/09/06 04:00 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
bone902 Threadhead Registered: 11/11/04 Posts: 632 Loc: deep in the bowels of the cor...	paullback, what are you trying to say? Most of your post is correct, but not all of it. Doctors dont prescribe people to take 8mg of suboxone 12 hours after that last dose of hydro,oxy, whatever it be. Doctors TITRATE your dose up. plain and simple. yes, you will get sick if you dont give it enough time. People, wait more like 18 to 24 hours after the last dose before they start suboxone. and they start out small--like 2mg then maybe 2 more that night or something. next day 4mg and 2 at night or something and then 6 or 8 by the next day. sorry. close but no cigar. and sheesh, once yer on it, yer on it. less is more. well, do whats right and if you end up taking 16mg a day then so be it. after a while, you can step back down. dont be afraid. bone
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#105257 - 01/09/06 05:13 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
paullblack Stranger Registered: 01/05/06 Posts: 19	Bone, Yes,absolutely most doctors wouldn't dare put there patients on 8mg of suboxone to start! But it happened to my friend in Cincinnati and not just 8mg but 32mg to start. It was the VA hospital and he wanted to get the highest dose possible so he asked the doctors to prescribe that much. They held him at the VA overnight after giving him 8mg.,after a urine test the previous day. the next day they RX'd him 8mg 4x's a day right off the bat (32mg per day!). This was when suboxone treatments were in the embryonic stages and were using VA.hospitals as testing grounds back in 2002 just started.He (my friend) had plans on getting the huge doses prescribed so he could take what he needed for himself and selling the balance in order to try and make a little $. He titrated his doses of Temgesics up over a four week period prior to getting his first visit so he would be able to handle 8mg at once. Yea, he was going to make allot of $ selling all those 8mgers. Well, that tactic didn't work out very well, to say the least! But NO, It would be a rare occation for a dr. to RX a new patient that much under the current prescribing standards.
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#105258 - 01/09/06 05:26 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
SandyFeet GRAND Pooh-Bah Registered: 03/20/04 Posts: 1477 Loc: By the ocean	I think it is common practice for a doctor to prescribe an initial dose of Subutex or Suboxone at 8mg or higher(daily not at once) as an induction and immediately taper. This is if the medication is being used for opioid withdrawal. I am sure doctors use different prescribing methods, but it is certainly not uncommon to have a high initial dose. This is my understanding. _________________________ I'd rather stay here with all the madmen Than perish with the sadmen roaming free David Bowie
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#105259 - 01/09/06 05:55 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
bone902 Threadhead Registered: 11/11/04 Posts: 632 Loc: deep in the bowels of the cor...	well, Im sorry for your friend. the embryonic stages, yes. I believe sub has been fda approved since 2002 or 2003. It truly is a unique drug and works a little differently than most. I hope your friend didnt have to suffer to much doing that. Sorry it didnt work out for him. Yea, there is alot happening in the world today.Suboxone is still being learned about and how best to deal with it and stepping off of it. I read somewhere where they are also starting or looking into making other drugs similar to suboxone. something like oxcodone mixed with naloxone or bupe or something. Im sorry, I just cant remember what, but it was a partial agonist just as sub is. Perhaps giving the same results as suboxone, but dealt with much easier to step off of. Im excited to see the future in these certain medicines. take care. bone
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#105260 - 01/09/06 06:04 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
sjz76 Journeyman Registered: 03/22/05 Posts: 76 Loc: PA	I had very bad side effects from the suboxone unstoppable vomitting, nasea, dizziness, lethargic feeling like i was gonna die i couldnt drive or do nothing, the doc said take one 8mg one a day, well i cut it half still same problem, then i tried a quarter of it did nothing, needless to say i went to the ER for withdrawl symtoms they treat you like [censored] but they gave me Methadone now that made me feel much better and happy without cravings for hydro. I cant find a doctor to prescribe it though, anyone know anything about that? Thanx for any help
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#105261 - 01/09/06 06:14 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
paullblack Stranger Registered: 01/05/06 Posts: 19	I know everyone and every situation is different. I've heard of hard core IV users starting out at 8mg 4x per day. A very good friend had 8mg prescribed first visit and was told to titrate either way depending on how it worked for her. The Dr started her out on suboxone only after 24 hours clean (so she said!),but indeed wasn't. She'd used the previous night, IV. She took her first 8mg the following day,16 hours after her last pure agonist. Needless to say she lay in bed in horrible w/d's for 3 days. After those three horrid days she finally felt ok then to feeling great. After much research I told her doc that she should have started my friend on Subutex for the first 48 hours and then changed her over to suboxone. this (know it all) doc told me that there was NO difference between suboxone and subutex! When I started my treatment program I called several doctors and after explaining my particular situation asked the doctor what his protocol would be considering my situation. After three doctors I finally found the one that suited my taste. He prescribed 2mg of subutex (NOT suboxone) for the first two days at 2mg to start and titrate to the necessary dosage, then switched me over to suboxone on the third day to 2mg every 6 hours. But had found my optimal dose at 1mg every 12 hours. After four days I cut my dosage in half and felt much better but told the doctor 8mg 3x's per day worked the best so I could have extras in case of emergency. I'm finding that 1/3 of a 2mg 2x's per day (at most) works the best. Hence;With buprenorphene "less is best". And make sure your doc starts you out on subutex rather than suboxone for at least the first two to three days before switching you over to suboxone. Although suboxone will work ok at first dosing as long as you've given enough time between last full agonist and suboxone!(24 to 36 hours clean).. I still wish they would legalize temgesic (.2mg) and .3mg buprenex IV in this country! But we all know this country will never approve of subscribing an injectable (.3mg buprenex).
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#105262 - 01/09/06 06:28 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
sjz76 Journeyman Registered: 03/22/05 Posts: 76 Loc: PA	my doctor knew i took hydros the day before taking the suboxone no wonder i got so darn sick 8mgs at once, i never finished them or went back and i did real good for like 4 weeks then i got real depressed and went back to my old ways and its worse than ever, maybe i should talk to the doctor about the subutex what exactly does that do and what are the side effects from it??
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#105263 - 01/09/06 07:40 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
paullblack Stranger Registered: 01/05/06 Posts: 19	Believe me SJZ I know exactly what you're going through. Hang tight until someone answers your post. I'm sure there are many qualified members that can help you. I will give you my advice tomorrow night, I have to be somewhere an hour ago. But you will be ok. Hang in till someone gives you good advice. I'll answer your post tomorrow night. Luck be with you, just hang tight.
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#105264 - 01/10/06 06:03 AM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
dmg GRAND Pooh-Bah Registered: 10/27/03 Posts: 2169 Loc: Bearing Strait Ice/Land Bridge	Well, with premise out there that this stuff reacts differently to everyone, I offer another experience. I've found that I can take an 8mg dose of Suboxone only 8 hours after the last dose of DOC...being Hydro. This is done with zero ill effects at all. I imagine that part of it is due to the fact that my tolerance to my DOC is so high, that withdrawls set in (albeit very very subtle withdrawl symptoms - the very first stages) only 8 hours after doses....so perhaps this is why the Bupe is able to get to the receptors and cling on very easily, as the remnants of the DOC are gone by that point, and therefore there is no fighting for the receptors. Again though, this is only my experience. Also, personally, my understanding of and personal experience with Suboxone is that the Naloxone truly is rendered totally ineffective when taken orally(sublingually). The naloxone in Suboxone is only triggered when taken IV, and therefore, I've never had a problem with it. I think a lot of people attribute these types of problems(Suboxone causing people to get sick i.e. throwing into withdrawls) to the Naloxone alone. But what you have to keep in mind is that Buprenorphine is itself a mixed agonist and antagonist, depending on the amount taken and the opiate-tolerance of the user. If you take Subutex in high enough doses and your tolerance to opiates is at the "right" level for this to occur, you'll get thrown right into withdrawl...or have the ability to. Of course, again, Bupe does in fact react differently to each person who takes it. There is no across the board definitive way to predict how each person will react to whatever dose of whatever form of Buprenorphine. But what is a rule that can apply across the board is that "less really is more" with Bupe. Of course, as Bone said, this doesn't mean that taking more is going to be harmful or anything. But starting low allows users to find the lowest possible dose that is going to work for them which cuts down on costs, and on these instances of forced-withdrawl...for the most part.
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#105265 - 01/10/06 02:08 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
paullblack Stranger Registered: 01/05/06 Posts: 19	Quote: I read somewhere where they are also starting or looking into making other drugs similar to suboxone. something like oxcodone mixed with naloxone or bupe or something. Im sorry, I just cant remember what, but it was a partial agonist just as sub is. Perhaps giving the same results as suboxone, but dealt with much easier to step off of. Im excited to see the future in these certain medicines. take care. bone Bone, please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I gathered in your post sounds to me like the new drug " Oxytrex " http://opioids.com/tolerance/oxytrex.html It could be a wonderful discovery if what they say is true?
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#105266 - 01/10/06 02:18 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
paullblack Stranger Registered: 01/05/06 Posts: 19	Quote: my doctor knew i took hydros the day before taking the suboxone no wonder i got so darn sick 8mgs at once, i never finished them or went back and i did real good for like 4 weeks then i got real depressed and went back to my old ways and its worse than ever, maybe i should talk to the doctor about the subutex what exactly does that do and what are the side effects from it?? Most likely the only way you will get Methadone is join the government opiate detox program, where you drive down in the dirtiest part of the city and stand in line for your cup of methadone liquid while a staff member watches you to make sure you drink it down!! No, you don't want to do that! I have one friend in Memphis who is prescribed methadose (10mg methadone pill). He's prescribed 10mg every 8 hours. But I believe you'll be hard pressed to find a pain doc to prescribe methadone for you unless you have good and adequate pain records from your doc and justifies a prescription of Methadone. You're more likely to get prescribed percocet than methadone. If you are determined to get off all opiates I would suggest calling around and find a doctor that is certified to prescribe subutex/suboxone and ask him if he would prescribe you subutex for the first several days. And absoluteley explain your past history with suboxone to the doc. I've never know of anyone where buprenorphine didn't work for the patient. They just need to experiment to get the correct dosage down. Good luck to you sjz. Edited by paullblack (01/10/06 02:20 PM)
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#105267 - 01/11/06 06:47 AM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
twinsa2b GRAND Pooh-Bah Registered: 08/13/02 Posts: 1178 Loc: New England	Warning: I am barging in here! Dmg and Bone~~I missed it if you even posted but I am curious to know if either of you posted about your experiences with suboxone when you first started using it or even deciding to use it? Yes, I could use search and go back and back but that to me just doesn't seem right. I know I have searched people before for other reasons but unless you tell me a date to start looking for and to search that way, I would rather not. Did either of you document your experiences here? How about on the VIP side? UI would LOVE to read it if you did. _________________________ I've learned that you shouldn't go through life with catcher's mitts on both hands. You need to be able to throw something back. (Maya Angelou)
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#105268 - 01/11/06 07:10 AM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
dmg GRAND Pooh-Bah Registered: 10/27/03 Posts: 2169 Loc: Bearing Strait Ice/Land Bridge	Twins, No, I didn't document it really in detail or anything, just random posts where people had questions or comments and I felt my experience applied, so I shared. But I'd be more than happy to recount the experience, the ongoing experience, as its still relatively recent and on my mind. I believe that Bone did document some of his experiences...and they are great posts... Edited by dmg (01/11/06 07:11 AM)
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#105269 - 01/11/06 07:16 AM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
dmg GRAND Pooh-Bah Registered: 10/27/03 Posts: 2169 Loc: Bearing Strait Ice/Land Bridge	Okay, I lied, and I found a thread I started back in October about the beginning stages of my treatment....and like I said, I'd be more than happy to fill in how its gone since! http://www.epharmacywatch.com/freeboard/...true#Post334755
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#105270 - 01/11/06 10:34 AM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
bone902 Threadhead Registered: 11/11/04 Posts: 632 Loc: deep in the bowels of the cor...	Twins--I know I did document some here and there. I cannot for the life of me remember what thread it was in. Probably several, to be honest. But I too, would be happy to "re-tell"my experience. Ill come back this evening and post it. From day 1 to current. It was all relatively easy and smooth transition. Ill keep it rather short. Paullblack--yes, that must be it, that oxytrex. I have done zero research on it thus far. I just remmeber reading something about it was all. Suboxone is kind of tricky but sucessful. Im thinking they are trying to smooth out the edges with this type of wonder drug. It would be great to have a drug with this type of success and yet be very easy to get off of at the same time. Or just something that did the job in a quicker manner and allows the user to take without fear of withdrawls from competition--no matter what opiate they are/were taking. I need to do some reading on the oxytrex. Would be very interested. Ill recollect my days tonight. Hopefully it can help someone. take care bone
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#105271 - 01/11/06 06:22 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
sjz76 Journeyman Registered: 03/22/05 Posts: 76 Loc: PA	thank you for your sincerety and concern, i definately do not want to join a government clinic place. I tried different doses of suboxone but every time i got sick. I went to the ER where the gave me 2 methadones to take I felt great withdrawl symptoms were gone, I was calm and happy,pain free. At my worst I take about 150mgs of hydros a day. I need to get away from it. Thank you for any ideas
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#105272 - 01/11/06 07:43 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
bone902 Threadhead Registered: 11/11/04 Posts: 632 Loc: deep in the bowels of the cor...	Well Twins--this is how it was for me. I took my last dose of hydro on a Sunday at like 11am or something(I cant remember, ive told this before, but somewhere around 11) anywhoo, then Monday morning at 1030am I took my first dose of suboxone. It was 2mg. He had me hang around(I just drove around town)for 3 hours and then came back to the doc office and he gave me another 2mg at 130pm. I still had 2 more of the 2mg pills left and he told me I could take them at night if I felt discomfort. That night at like 7 or so I did take another 2mg. He had sent me home that day with another script. So that night I also filled it. I came back on Tuesday at 10am and he gave me 4mg. 3 hours later another 4mg. I had some more and he said the same thing if I felt discomfort. I did not take any that night. So, Wednesday comes--Im there at 10am again and he gives me 8mg. then sends me home. with a new script and all. The first day of suboxone was ok. I still had minimal aches and pains. But on Tuesday after I took that first 4mg, felt perfect and have remained that way since. Its just truly amazing how effective the suboxone is/was. After trying over and over to taper and go CT and feeling those withdrawls each time, I just couldnt believe how good I was feeling from the suboxne. oh well, the rest is history for now. take care, bone
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#105273 - 01/12/06 02:20 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
paullblack Stranger Registered: 01/05/06 Posts: 19	Bone, I never get tired of hearing success stories with Suboxone/Subutex/Bupe. I've never seen nor heard of anyone where some form of Buprenorphine didn't help "tremendously" people stop all forms and doses of full agonists. I've heard of people with 500mg Oxycontin Monkeys on their back and after two to three days on Suboxone/Subutex/etc they all feel/felt like they were (re)born into a new young body. And all felt wonderful after the first couple of days on Bupe. I believe it really is a miracle drug. It's all in finding the correct dose. Now, "PAWS", coming off bupe can be as bad as with a full agonist. But there are new drugs and methods out there today that will help getting off the bupe also. These drugs and methods were not around until a year,or so ago. Good luck to all who are either on or try Bupe to get off Opiate agonists. Edited by paullblack (01/12/06 02:34 PM)
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#105274 - 01/12/06 04:57 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
harry883 Member Registered: 02/03/02 Posts: 136	Quote: Now, "PAWS", coming off bupe can be as bad as with a full agonist. But there are new drugs and methods out there today that will help getting off the bupe also. These drugs and methods were not around until a year,or so ago. I have tried to stop taking bupe MANY times and its 75% as bad as methadone. (this is after a couple of years of using bupe)
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#105275 - 01/14/06 11:41 AM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
bone902 Threadhead Registered: 11/11/04 Posts: 632 Loc: deep in the bowels of the cor...	Quote: Quote: Now, "PAWS", coming off bupe can be as bad as with a full agonist. But there are new drugs and methods out there today that will help getting off the bupe also. These drugs and methods were not around until a year,or so ago. I have tried to stop taking bupe MANY times and its 75% as bad as methadone. (this is after a couple of years of using bupe) well, I can only hope that coming off the suboxone is NOT that way for me. Everyone is different, so I dont worry too much. Regardless of what I hear or read. So, I will take is very very very slow to step off this drug. Ill expect maybe some discomfort but for the most part if you step so slowly off you shouldnt expeience too much. and Ill keep that frame of mind too. thanks! bone
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#105276 - 01/14/06 09:52 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
harry883 Member Registered: 02/03/02 Posts: 136	Quote: I have tried to stop taking bupe MANY times and its 75% as bad as methadone. (this is after a couple of years of using bupe) well, I can only hope that coming off the suboxone is NOT that way for me. Everyone is different, so I dont worry too much. Regardless of what I hear or read. So, I will take is very very very slow to step off this drug. Ill expect maybe some discomfort but for the most part if you step so slowly off you shouldnt expeience too much. and Ill keep that frame of mind too. thanks! bone I think the key is don't stay on it for very long. It's such a long acting drug, the real problems don't start for a good week after the last dose. Not too many claim to succeed remaining drug free after subutex/suboxone. Don't get me wrong I really hope it all works out exactly as you want. I posted a link for some accurate info. Bupe info
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#105277 - 01/14/06 11:35 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
SandyFeet GRAND Pooh-Bah Registered: 03/20/04 Posts: 1477 Loc: By the ocean	Quote: Not too many claim to succeed remaining drug free after subutex/suboxone. Don't get me wrong I really hope it all works out exactly as you want. I posted a link for some accurate info. Bupe info Harry is it the suboxone that isn’t successful or that opioid/opiate dependent people, as a group, tend to have a high recidivism rate? I think this is an important distinction. _________________________ I'd rather stay here with all the madmen Than perish with the sadmen roaming free David Bowie
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#105278 - 01/15/06 05:20 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
harry883 Member Registered: 02/03/02 Posts: 136	Quote: Harry is it the suboxone that isn’t successful or that opioid/opiate dependent people, as a group, tend to have a high recidivism rate? I think this is an important distinction. In Australia buprenorphine was "sold" as a painless way of getting off other maintenence drugs, "a cure" which tuned out to be totally untrue. But it does depend on what you call success. What I wanted was a drug I could take for a little while, then stop totally and go about my life totally drug free. I found that the WD symptoms don't even start for a week after the last dose of bupe, and they were still pretty strong at day 30. Thats after reducing all the way down to a single temgesic a day. I just think it's important that people know that it is NOT a cure. It IS just another maintenence drug like LAAM and Methadone, that works while you continue to take it. Something else that's interesting is the opinion of Australian doctors VS USA doctors, In Australia the success of the program is measured by how many people have completed the program and remained drug free afterwards, in the USA success is measured by how many people remain in treatment.
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#105279 - 01/22/06 02:21 PM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
gooser Journeyman Registered: 09/22/05 Posts: 41	heres some information ive found- http://opioids.com/buprenorphine/buprev.html ..my question would be coming off of hydro and using the .02 buprenorphine[which i have],what would be a good starting dose and how to step down from there?approx how long would the step down take? any info would help..thanks p.s. i do believe i have enough .02 to follow some sort of regimen.
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#105280 - 01/23/06 04:17 AM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
jig Stranger Registered: 09/14/05 Posts: 3	Quote: Hi from Athens Greece Just find this fantastic forum I write other time because i must live now Just i say here in Greece we have many problems.......................I WANT HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@ Jig
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#105281 - 01/23/06 06:27 AM Re: Buprenorphine - Temgesic
Trish Enthusiast Registered: 12/12/05 Posts: 200 Loc: Southeast	A little off topic but, does nubain have any of the properties that bupe or subutex has?
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