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#960071 - 11/11/09 04:49 PM Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed
tigersmom Offline
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Registered: 07/20/05
Posts: 5821
Loc: The Steve Doocy Fan Club
From the Washington Post:

Quote:
I'm hoping, for your sake, that you didn't spend your Saturday night as I did: watching the House debate health-care reform on C-SPAN.
Pathetic, I know. The outcome wasn't in doubt, and the arguments were as familiar as an old pair of slippers. Moral imperative! Government takeover! Long-overdue protections! Crippling mandates!

I'm not a huge fan of the House measure, but I was glad to see it straggle across the finish line, if only to keep the process going. And, by the end of the long debate, I was cheering for it even more because of the appalling amount of misinformation being peddled by its opponents.

I don't mean the usual hyperbole about "a children-bankrupting, health-care-rationing, freedom-crushing, $1 trillion government takeover of our health-care system," as Texas Republican Jeb Hensarling put it. Or the tired canards about taxpayer-funded abortion or insurance subsidies for illegal immigrants.

Or the extraneous claims about alleged Democratic excesses, as in this from Georgia Republican Jack Kingston: "Let's remember the Pelosi plan for jobs: an $800 billion stimulus plan that caused unemployment to go from 8.5 percent to over 10 percent."

Caused? We can debate whether the stimulus was effective, although the best evidence is that it prevented things from being even worse. No rational person believes the stimulus "caused" unemployment to rise.

I mean the flood of sheer factual misstatements about the health-care bill.

The falsehood-peddling began at the top, with Minority Leader John Boehner:

"If you're a Medicare Advantage enrollee . . . the Congressional Budget Office says that 80 percent of them are going to lose their Medicare Advantage."

Not true. The CBO hasn't said anything of the sort. Boehner's office acknowledges that he misspoke: He meant to cite a study from the Medicare actuary estimating that projected enrollment would be down by 64 percent -- if the cuts took effect. Choosing not to enroll in Medicare Advantage is different from "losing" it.

But Boehner wasn't alone.

Kentucky Republican Brett Guthrie: "The bill raises taxes for just about everyone."

Not true. The bill imposes a surtax on the top 0.3 percent of households, individuals making more than $500,000 a year and couples making more than $1 million.

Georgia Republican Tom Price: "This bill, on Page 733, empowers the Washington bureaucracy to deny lifesaving patient care if it costs too much."

Not true. The bill sets up a Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research "in order to identify the manner in which diseases, disorders, and other health conditions can most effectively and appropriately be prevented, diagnosed, treated, and managed clinically."

Are Republicans against figuring out what works? There's nothing in there about cost, and certainly nothing about denying "lifesaving patient care."

Price, again: "This bill, on Page 94, will make it illegal for any American to obtain health care not approved by Washington."

Not true. The vast majority of Americans get their insurance through their employers. The bill envisions setting minimum federal standards for such insurance, in part to determine who is eligible to buy coverage through the newly created insurance exchanges. This is hardly tantamount to making it "illegal" to obtain "health care" without Washington's approval.

Michigan Republican Dave Camp: "Americans could face five years in jail if they don't comply with the bill's demands to buy approved health insurance."

Not true. The bill requires people to obtain insurance or, with some hardship exceptions, pay a fine. No one is being jailed for being uninsured. People who intentionally evade paying the fine could, in theory, be prosecuted -- just like others who cheat on their taxes.

California Republican Buck McKeon: "I offered two amendments to try to improve this bill -- one to require members of Congress to enroll in the public option like we're going to require all of you to do."

Not true. No one is required to enroll in the public option. In fact, most people won't even be eligible to enroll in the public option or other plans available through the exchanges.

Florida Republican Ginny Brown-Waite: "The president's own economic advisers have said that this bill will kill 5.5 million jobs."

Not true. Christina Romer, chair of the Council of Economic Advisers, has estimated that the bill would increase economic growth and add jobs. Republicans misuse Romer's previous economic research on the impact of tax increases to produce the phony 5.5 million number.

You have to wonder: Are the Republican arguments against the bill so weak that they have to resort to these misrepresentations and distortions?

marcusr@washpost.com


_________________________
"Prejudices are what fools use for reason."

- Voltaire


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#960144 - 11/11/09 06:07 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: tigersmom]
genethebean1 Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 3511
Loc: The Boonies
See, this is what I am talking about. These damn Republicans are so afraid of the democrats succeeding (theyby further ruining the GOP chances in the next election) that they are willing to LIE, LIE, LIE and try to scare the cr@p out of the people.

They (along with their right-wing media cohorts) continue to whip the Tea Baggers into a frenzy so that these mis-guided Americans won't pay attention to the fact that they are being used and that the repubs are complete liars!
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#960152 - 11/11/09 06:13 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: genethebean1]
tjt2300 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 1096
Loc: In God's Country
News flash!! Politicians lie! Shocker, I know. Just like the Dems portraying all Reps as fat, rich, baby eating monsters. If you are going to get indignant over politicians lying you shouldn't read the paper or watch the news. It is equal BS on both sides.
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#960162 - 11/11/09 06:30 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: tjt2300]
genethebean1 Offline
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Ok, since you don't seem able to "get" what I am talking about, I will try to be more specific -

I am not talking about the everyday run-of-the-mill lies that all politicians tell. I am talking about the absolute total BS that the repubs are spreading to induce fear and panic in the citizenry with the hope that it will result in the GOP taking back control in the next election.
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#960167 - 11/11/09 06:46 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: genethebean1]
DrStickybuds Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 234
Loc: East Coast US of A
Although a self-described liberal, Marcus has been a staunch supporter of Fox News; her comparison of Barack Obama with Richard Nixon in the context of media relations has been criticized by many observers.
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#960170 - 11/11/09 06:52 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: tigersmom]
Rochelle5mg Offline
Account closed as user wants to start again with another username...
GRAND Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/04/07
Posts: 3300
Loc: mailbox
Quote:
From the Washington Post:

What a bunch of nonsensical mish-mash.
Let's see what the Senate does.
I'm gettin' my passport ready just in case though.

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#960172 - 11/11/09 06:55 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: genethebean1]
Rochelle5mg Offline
Account closed as user wants to start again with another username...
GRAND Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/04/07
Posts: 3300
Loc: mailbox
Quote:
I am talking about the absolute total BS that the repubs are spreading to induce fear and panic in the citizenry with the hope that it will result in the GOP taking back control in the next election.

Gene it don't matter.
There are no real conservative republicans. Just RINOS and crooks.
Even if they take over nothing will change.
Our country is slipping away unfortunately.

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#960177 - 11/11/09 06:59 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: genethebean1]
tjt2300 Offline
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Posts: 1096
Loc: In God's Country
Believe it or not gene, I get it. It is an orchestrated campaign to destroy a bill. It is part of the game. The Dems usually harp on Reps taking away old peoples SS, taking away all personal liberties and so on. I feel it is just as much total BS when the Dems do it. If you'd like, after I give my kids a bath I will list examples. I am an "expert" on very few topics but I can hold my own on politics. The fact that you are suprised and outraged about our political system working shows me you don't get it.
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#960194 - 11/11/09 07:20 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: tjt2300]
genethebean1 Offline
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No, it is an orchestrated campaign to push their agenda, regardless of the impact it has on ALL americans, in order to regain power. Sure, you can say that is what they all do but this current "regime" is truly evil in their approach. I know that I'll never convince the likes of you (tjt) or others (like rochelle) and I'm not trying to. I can't even begin to be as articulate as some of my compadres here (tigersmom, brisbain) but I hope that in some way, I can help the more reasonable members here to open up their minds to what has been happening the past eight years and to the current efforts, by the GOP, to try to continue their reign of terror.
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#960758 - 11/12/09 04:37 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: genethebean1]
jackie01 Offline
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Posts: 265
I think everyone should read this healthcare bill cover to cover before making any decisions. Did you know you go to jail if you decide not to buy healthcare ins.?

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#960804 - 11/12/09 05:19 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: jackie01]
tigersmom Offline
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Originally Posted By: jackie01
I think everyone should read this healthcare bill cover to cover before making any decisions. Did you know you go to jail if you decide not to buy healthcare ins.?


Bullshit, how many people have gone to jail for not complying with the Mass. State Law which is the prototype for the current Healthcare Reform? Answer: 0. I quote again from The Washington Post, and had you bothered to read the article, you would have read the following:

Quote:
Not true. The bill requires people to obtain insurance or, with some hardship exceptions, pay a fine. No one is being jailed for being uninsured. People who intentionally evade paying the fine could, in theory, be prosecuted -- just like others who cheat on their taxes.


Object all you like to a Bill whose object is to avail some 47 Million, many of whom are children, Americans access to affordable Health Insurance by leveling the playing field on which the Insurance Companies have long held monoplies, but please, stop believing this made-up shitt, and posting it as if it were remotely possible.
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#960812 - 11/12/09 05:25 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: tigersmom]
Rochelle5mg Offline
Account closed as user wants to start again with another username...
GRAND Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/04/07
Posts: 3300
Loc: mailbox
Quote:
Bullshit, how many people have gone to jail for not complying with the Mass. State Law which is the prototype for the current Healthcare Reform? Answer: 0. I quote again from The Washington Post, and had you bothered to read the article, you would have read the following:

Ooohh..a bit touchy TM.
Wake up! Obama and Speaker Pelosi already ducked the question
which means yes! Please don't make me find the videos again
and post them. Brisbain showed us how to do that.(Embed the you tube I mean..)
Obama & Pelosi both said there would be consequences for non compliance.

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#960819 - 11/12/09 05:35 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: Rochelle5mg]
genethebean1 Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
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Loc: The Boonies
Rochelle - I'm really glad you have your passport ready. I hope you get to use it REAL soon.
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#960822 - 11/12/09 05:37 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: Rochelle5mg]
tigersmom Offline
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Registered: 07/20/05
Posts: 5821
Loc: The Steve Doocy Fan Club
Quote:
Obama & Pelosi both said there would be consequences for non compliance.


The Consequences would be a fine just the same as you would get if caught driving without driver's Insurance. Jeesh. As for being "touchy" you bet your arse I get touchy when lies and half-truths are being sold as "reality."
_________________________
"Prejudices are what fools use for reason."

- Voltaire


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#960840 - 11/12/09 06:01 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: jackie01]
BlueDawg Offline
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Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 296
Originally Posted By: jackie01
I think everyone should read this healthcare bill cover to cover before making any decisions. Did you know you go to jail if you decide not to buy healthcare ins.?
Did you see how many pages in that bill ? None of our Representatives or Senators ever read the whole bill and they have to vote on it.They (Dem. & Rep. ) all have their own talking points about the bill and no one will ever know everything thats really in this bill.Some people are blinded by pure bias for one party or the other that they cannot make an independent decision based on fact.I am like some of the above posters as I believe that if a politician's mouth is moving he or she is lying. JMHO. B.D.

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#960847 - 11/12/09 06:18 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: BlueDawg]
Rochelle5mg Offline
Account closed as user wants to start again with another username...
GRAND Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/04/07
Posts: 3300
Loc: mailbox
B.D.
No worries. Tiger's Mom is on board.
She has researched the issue and has re-assured everyone
that we are over reacting.
She cited the Massachusetts plan as a guideline
for things to come..

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#960855 - 11/12/09 06:21 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: genethebean1]
Rochelle5mg Offline
Account closed as user wants to start again with another username...
GRAND Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/04/07
Posts: 3300
Loc: mailbox
Originally Posted By: genethebean1
Rochelle - I'm really glad you have your passport ready. I hope you get to use it REAL soon.

Gene I hope not but I respect your posts.
Thank you. smile

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#961274 - 11/13/09 06:58 AM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: Rochelle5mg]
BlueDawg Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 296
Originally Posted By: Rochelle5mg
B.D.
No worries. Tiger's Mom is on board.
She has researched the issue and has re-assured everyone
that we are over reacting.
She cited the Massachusetts plan as a guideline
for things to come..
If T.M. has read that whole bill she is the only one in the world who has.I think she gets most of her talking points directly from the Democratic Party LOL.I think she ought to run for Pelosi's job.I don't know her personally but she has to be a lot better looking and I know a hell of a lot smarter by her posts on here .JMHO. B.D.

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#961277 - 11/13/09 07:10 AM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: Rochelle5mg]
Stacy Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 3679
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rochelle5mg
B.D.
No worries. Tiger's Mom is on board.
She has researched the issue and has re-assured everyone
that we are over reacting.
She cited the Massachusetts plan as a guideline
for things to come..


Oh, you mean that prototype type that is a big fat failure and threatening to bankrupt the state?

Oh good! This will be even better on the National level.
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I Do Whatever My Rice Krispies Tell Me To.

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#961279 - 11/13/09 07:43 AM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: Stacy]
Stacy Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
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Some interesting info about the prototype...premiums have increased a LOT, a shortage of doctors now, people have insurance but can NOT get into see a doctor so they have to use the ER. People using the ER for general care RAISES the cost of medical care and then puts real emergencies at risk because of longer waiting times.

What good is everyone having insurance if they can't get in to see a doctor? An average of 63 days waiting to see a family medicine doctor. By that time you will be over your illness or dead. A fractured bone can heal twice in that amount of time.

At least the Canadians won't be coming here for health care anymore.

Quote:
Doctor Shortage to Spur Delays, Crowded ERs in Health Overhaul

By Pat Wechsler

Nov. 13 (Bloomberg) -- President Barack Obama’s health overhaul, aiming to add 36 million Americans to the insurance rolls, will worsen a family-doctor shortage, triggering longer waits for office visits and crowded emergency rooms.

“This is already a catastrophic crisis,” said Joseph Stubbs, president of the Philadelphia-based American College of Physicians, the second-largest doctor’s group in the U.S. “Now we’re talking 30 million more people who will want to see a doctor. The supply of doctors just won’t be there for them.”

Underserved areas in the U.S. currently need 16,679 more primary-care physicians to reach a “medically appropriate” target of 1 for every 2,000 residents, U.S. data shows. The health-care overhaul bills before Congress would raise pay for family doctors, increase residency training and forgive school debt to help meet that deficit. Those measures, though, will take years to make a difference, said Stubbs, who also works as an internist in Albany, Georgia.

More family doctors are needed to cut health costs through early diagnosis and prevention, and increase access to medical care, Obama said in a June 15 speech to the American Medical Association meeting in Chicago. The Massachusetts health-care initiative shows what can go wrong if the primary-care system isn’t fixed simultaneously with the start of universal coverage, said Allan Goroll, a professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School in Boston.

Massachusetts passed a law in 2006 that has increased the percentage of insured to 97.4 percent of its population, the highest in the U.S., from 93.6 percent.

Waiting Times Rise

The average waiting time to see a family-medicine doctor in Boston, a city with 14 teaching hospitals, is 63 days, the most among 15 cities in a 2009 survey by Merritt Hawkins & Associates, a recruiting and research firm in Irving, Texas. People in Los Angeles waited 59 days, while those in Miami saw doctors in 7 days, the survey found.

Boston’s longer wait was “driven in part by the health- care reform initiative,” the report said.

Even before the initiative, there was a shortage of primary care doctors in Massachusetts, said Harvard’s Goroll, who is also an internist at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston. As many as half of doctors in the state have closed their practices to new patients, forcing many of the newly insured to turn to emergency rooms for care, he said.

“The primary lesson of health-care reform in Massachusetts is that you can’t increase the number of insured unless you have a strong primary-care base in place to receive them,” Goroll said. “Without that foundation of primary care, Massachusetts has ended up with higher costs and people going to emergency rooms when they can’t find a doctor.”

Spending to Double

Per-capita health spending is projected to double in Massachusetts by 2020, according to a June report by the state. Insurance premiums rose 10 percent this year, Massachusetts Health and Human Services Secretary JudyAnn Bigby wrote in an Oct. 21 New England Journal of Medicine article.

There were 303,749 primary-care doctors in the U.S. at the end of 2007, according to data in a 2009 American Medical Association report. That number rose 11 percent from 2000 to 2007, falling behind a 13 percent jump among other doctors, the Chicago-based group said.

The shortage in primary care isn’t uniform across the nation, according to U.S. Health Resources and Services Administration data from all 50 states, which shows 6,215 designated shortage areas. In general, suburban and wealthier urban areas tend to be well stocked with family doctors, and rural areas and inner cities are short.

Underserved Communities

The federal government designates regions as being underserved based on per capita numbers. To be designated, a region needs to have less than one family doctor per 3,500 residents. Using just this ratio, the communities have 7,413 fewer primary-care doctors than they need, the HRSA said.

An adequate level -- established by public health clinicians and staff as affording “appropriate” access to health care -- is 1 for every 2,000 residents, according to the HRSA, which gathers the data. That brings the deficit to 16,679.

In most industrialized nations, including Germany and the U.K., there is one primary-care physician for every specialist, according to the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development in Paris. The U.S. ratio is closer to one to three, according to the AMA.

The U.S. will need another 35,000 to 46,000 primary-care doctors within 15 years as the population ages, the American College of Physicians said in a 2009 report.

Living Longer

“We are living longer and living more often with chronic disease,” said Cathy Schoen of the health-care research group the Commonwealth Fund in New York. “Someone needs to be in the center of care and know the whole patient if care is to be coordinated and efficient.”

Becoming a family doctor -- once the icon of U.S. medical care, from Norman Rockwell paintings to TV’s Marcus Welby -- has lost its luster over the past decade, primarily because these physicians earn, at most, half of what specialists make, Harvard’s Goroll said.

In the late 1990s, Medicare and Medicaid changed the reimbursement system to compensate medical procedures at a higher rate than management and evaluation of patients, something family doctors focus on in their practices.

The emphasis on procedures and technology led many prospective doctors to choose careers in higher-paying radiology, orthopedic surgery, anesthesiology and dermatology, according to Goroll.

Average Salary

The average salary for family physicians grew 18 percent over five years, or about 3.6 percent annually, according to data from Merritt Hawkins, the recruiting firm. That compares with a 46 percent increase, or 9.3 percent a year, for orthopedic surgeons.

Family practice pays an average of $173,000 a year, a 2009 survey by Merritt Hawkins shows. This compares with $391,000 for a radiologist, $481,000 for an orthopedic surgeon, $344,000 for an anesthesiologist and $297,000 for a dermatologist.

Given that the typical medical student debt is about $140,000, the income disparities prove to be “strong disincentives for younger physicians,” according to a 2009 report from the American College of Physicians.

In a 2008 survey of third-year medical residents, 21 percent said they planned to pursue careers in general internal medicine, the equivalent of primary care, according to the American College of Physicians. That’s down from 54 percent in 1998. The rest were headed to subspecialties, such as oncology, gastroenterology and infectious disease.

Medical-School Changes

Medical schools at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, and Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore are attempting to change the trend by creating primary-care residency programs that let students work with families outside the hospital setting.

At Duke, a family medicine leadership residency was started three years ago to let students practice “21st-century primary care,” working in outpatient clinics and in communities, said Lloyd Michener, who is the chair of the department of community and family medicine at the medical school.

“It brings in an element of public health since residents are assessing both the needs of the patients and the community they are working in,” said Barbara Sheline, the school’s assistant dean for primary care.

A four-year urban health residency that begins in July 2010 at Hopkins combines medicine and pediatric training at community clinics and in schools.

Students in the Community

Duke also has approved a new primary-care curriculum for its medical students, allowing up to nine to choose work in community clinics during their four years.

The university will offer the program to three or four students this year on a pilot basis, then accept applications for the slots in the 2010-2011 academic year. The program will offer scholarships to give students the option of choosing a career in primary care without worrying about a large educational debt, Sheline said.

“For most of us, primary care is a calling,” Michener said. “But I see medical students turn down the idea of primary care for very thoughtful reasons about wanting a family themselves and not wanting to work all the time.”

Hopkins’ medical school also converted to a curriculum this year emphasizing “individualized medicine, based on genetic makeup and history, environmental influences and lifestyle,” said Charles Wiener, director of Hopkins’ residency programs and vice chairman of the department of medicine.

‘Knowing the Individual’

“Primary care knows the individual best,” Wiener said. “I’m hopeful this will spark more interest among students.”

Health-care overhaul legislation in the U.S. House and Senate offers medical school debt forgiveness for those who choose primary care. The bills also call for a redistribution of unused residency spots to primary care and general surgery.

They also attempt to redress the pay inequity between primary care and specialty medicine by giving family doctors a payment bonus of between 5 and 10 percent annually for at least the next five years. This is on top of a restructuring of Medicare payments beginning in 2010 by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services.

The agency is taking money away from specialists such as cardiologists and radiologists to fund a 6 percent to 8 percent increase in reimbursement for office visits to family physicians phased in over four years. The House version would also provide federal funds to increase Medicaid primary-care payments.

Medicaid Expansion

By allowing those living at 150 percent of the federal poverty level to qualify, the overhaul would expand the ranks of Medicaid by more than 10 million people in 2015.

These are populations that typically don’t have family doctors and frequently have been living with untreated chronic illness, said Lori Heim, president of the Leawood, Kansas-based American Academy of Family Physicians, representing 94,000 doctors and medical students.

Heim, who is also a family doctor at Scotland Memorial Hospital in Laurinburg, North Carolina, said she cared for a man in his 40s with untreated high blood pressure. Although the patient had a full-time job, he had no health insurance and no primary care doctor. He was already suffering from permanent liver and heart damage, and had to be admitted to the intensive care unit, she said.

“Instead of a family doctor putting him on generic blood pressure pills years ago that would have cost less than $100 a year, I had to put him in the ICU, which alone will run several thousand dollars,” Heim said. “Down the road, he may need dialysis. This is a working example of why costs keep going up and what happens when there aren’t enough family physicians.”

To contact the reporters on this story: Pat Wechsler at pwechsler@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: November 13, 2009 00:00 EST


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aOd7mHLJIhJc#
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#961303 - 11/13/09 10:11 AM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: Stacy]
OldandWorn Offline
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Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 9858
Loc: Somewhere in the budget
Let's hope that if the Senate does pass something, that it ends up being closer to the Canadian system than the British system.

IMO, we need reform but both the House and the Senate have missed the mark.
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#961310 - 11/13/09 10:24 AM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: BlueDawg]
tigersmom Offline
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Registered: 07/20/05
Posts: 5821
Loc: The Steve Doocy Fan Club
Quote:
If T.M. has read that whole bill she is the only one in the world who has.I think she gets most of her talking points directly from the Democratic Party LOL.


And what passes for YOUR opinion has been dictated by Glenn Beck, POX News, etc., so I guess we are even.
_________________________
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- Voltaire


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#961434 - 11/13/09 02:08 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: tigersmom]
BlueDawg Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 296
Originally Posted By: tigersmom
Quote:
If T.M. has read that whole bill she is the only one in the world who has.I think she gets most of her talking points directly from the Democratic Party LOL.


And what passes for YOUR opinion has been dictated by Glenn Beck, POX News, etc., so I guess we are even.
Who in the hell is Glenn Beck ? I make up my mind from what I know not from what some idiot in Washington or on T.V. tells me.Thats why this country is turning in to a bunch of puppets.I believe in thinking for my self.JMHO . B.D.

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#961471 - 11/13/09 02:46 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: OldandWorn]
eluded Offline
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Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 1618
I forget who did the news special that I watched last week, but they looked at healthcare systems around the world and compared.
The Japenese system was remarkable. No waiting, almost no cost to the patient and no gate-keepers between patient and specialist.Doctors were not getting rich, and were paid a salary that the gov decided. Not poor but not wealthy.
The American system was by far the most uncontrolled and costly. Also the best as far as treatment options, but not accessable to everyone.
When an MRI only cost $90 in one country, and here cost $1200+...
whats wrong with that picture?

The best guess is overbilling by dr's and hospitals because they know that the thieving insurance companies will short-pay most billed charges.And when underpayment becomes the norm, over-charging becomes the normal reaction.

If Insurance companies were cut out of the loop or tightly regulated, THAT alone would solve most of the problems that we have today.

Regulation of insurance companies was what all all other affordable healthcare systems had in common.

Some places there were no insurance companies, rather co-ops or gov secured (taxed) agencies that collected, paid, and regulated the system. Private insurance was still available, but for what? Those people that needed a place to throw money?

Healthcare is one of those things thats a basic right. Not based on social status or income.

The quality here is fine, its the access thats the problem.
Quality did not seem to be an issue in Japan...

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#961551 - 11/13/09 03:43 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: eluded]
Fermentia00 Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1134
Originally Posted By: eluded
I forget who did the news special that I watched last week, but they looked at healthcare systems around the world and compared.
The Japenese system was remarkable. No waiting, almost no cost to the patient and no gate-keepers between patient and specialist.Doctors were not getting rich, and were paid a salary that the gov decided. Not poor but not wealthy.
The American system was by far the most uncontrolled and costly. Also the best as far as treatment options, but not accessable to everyone.
When an MRI only cost $90 in one country, and here cost $1200+...
whats wrong with that picture?

The best guess is overbilling by dr's and hospitals because they know that the thieving insurance companies will short-pay most billed charges.And when underpayment becomes the norm, over-charging becomes the normal reaction.

If Insurance companies were cut out of the loop or tightly regulated, THAT alone would solve most of the problems that we have today.

Regulation of insurance companies was what all all other affordable healthcare systems had in common.

Some places there were no insurance companies, rather co-ops or gov secured (taxed) agencies that collected, paid, and regulated the system. Private insurance was still available, but for what? Those people that needed a place to throw money?

Healthcare is one of those things thats a basic right. Not based on social status or income.

The quality here is fine, its the access thats the problem.
Quality did not seem to be an issue in Japan...


Hell hath frozen over.
I agree with you.
Thank you.

(is this a trick?)
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#961559 - 11/13/09 03:51 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: Fermentia00]
Stacy Offline

GRAND Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 3679
Loc: USA
LOL

You know I think we all agree that something needs to be done about healthcare here in the US.

We just don't agree on how they need to go about it. smile
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I Do Whatever My Rice Krispies Tell Me To.

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#961564 - 11/13/09 03:53 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: BlueDawg]
tigersmom Offline
GRAND Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/20/05
Posts: 5821
Loc: The Steve Doocy Fan Club
Quote:
I believe in thinking for my self


Yes, I know you think you are...maybe you should extend that same assumption of autonomy of thought to people who aren't in agreement with you.
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"Prejudices are what fools use for reason."

- Voltaire


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#961589 - 11/13/09 04:11 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: Fermentia00]
Rochelle5mg Offline
Account closed as user wants to start again with another username...
GRAND Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/04/07
Posts: 3300
Loc: mailbox
Quote:
The Japenese system was remarkable. No waiting, almost no cost to the patient and no gate-keepers between patient and specialist.Doctors were not getting rich, and were paid a salary that the gov decided. Not poor but not wealthy.

I think in Japan the PCP's (doctors) are private but the hospitals
are run by the govt. They also measure your waistline and if it's too big
they fine you or not treat you or something.

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#961694 - 11/13/09 05:09 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: Stacy]
jackie01 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 265
I agree people wake up! If Canadians are coming here to have procedures because of wait time and their very life being in danger how do you think this will be any different.

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#961831 - 11/13/09 06:13 PM Re: Health scare tactics; GOP SCARE Tactics Exposed [Re: jackie01]
OldandWorn Offline
GRAND Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 9858
Loc: Somewhere in the budget
One scare tactic is the one about sll of the news stories about the Britidh NHS. The sad thing is: they are mostly true. Call it what you will, a large profound change like what the Democrats want is going to cause things to change in ways we haven't even realized. These things are for sure: Higher taxes, (some) rationed care and even higher profits for the Insurance companies. Will the benefits outweigh the sh#t, we will see.
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